The ADHD Trap: What to Do About It & How to Protect Yourself

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: Welcome back
to Compass Point Institute.

My name is Jon Murphy,
psychiatric nurse practitioner.

James Kennedy, PMHNP: And I'm James
Kennedy, psychiatric nurse practitioner.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: So what
are we talking about today?

James Kennedy, PMHNP: So today's
topic, again, Kind of in ADHD arena,

of hyperfocus burnout and repeat.

Um, so with that in mind.

Hopefully the goal and takeaway
of this podcast and this episode,

create structures that work with
your brain and, and not against it.

Interesting stat that I was looking at.

So with a ADHD lose about 22.1

days of productivity every year.

So almost a month is gone
just right off the bat.

Um, not necessarily because you can't
focus, I think as we both have with our

lived experience kind of understand, it's
those periods of hyper focus and extreme

productivity just can't be sustainable.

So you've got those long stretches
of work, 10, 12 hours, you're just in

that flow state, in the zone, that's
not sustainable to be on that level of

operation 12 hours every single day.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: The ADHD trap with meds
or without meds, you could fall into it.

It's a trap.

What we can do with medication is
we can learn and we can develop

behaviors we wouldn't otherwise,
but we're still gonna maybe fall

into the trap and what is the trap?

Well, it's hyper focus,
something exciting.

Number one, something gets really
interesting and then eventually, as though

it pains me to say it, it goes off the
rails and we burn out and then followed

by sort of this inattentive avoidance.

Guilt, shame, rinse, wash,
repeat what do you think James?

Does that sound accurate or do you have
anything you want to add to the trap?

James Kennedy, PMHNP: Yeah, I, I
think that that's a general framework.

So those kind of four different phases.

You've got your hyperfocus, you've
got the inevitable crash afterwards.

You've got those feelings of guilt,
anxiety, avoidance after that

guilt phase, and then recovery.

Um, and I think it doesn't
necessarily have to be these

large scale extreme cycles.

I think sometimes it's a
little bit more subtle.

But oftentimes with ADHD, you do
see really these extreme situations

where just going pedal to the metal
and, inevitably falling into these

other three parts of that cycle.

I think here, more about hyperfocus
and, and the superpower aspects of

ADHD, you know, while of course we
know during those periods where you're

just engaged and in that flow state,
yes, I'm sure you can get a lot done.

Creativity can be incredible, but
it's not necessarily a superpower

when you're dealing with these other
three stages here, um, you know, it

actually is kind of destroying your
life, so you might be neglecting eating.

I think that with or without meds.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: So the slogan,
uh, my ADHD is a superpower.

Like what do you see as the, the
biggest problem with that is it

that people are ignoring the sort
of challenges or minimizing the

challenges 'cause of their superpower?

James Kennedy, PMHNP: Look on whole, I
think it's good to look at this from a

strengths based perspective, and I think
that that language definitely empowers

people, but it also is, you know, kind
of perpetuating and fueling this trap.

It's like, oh, great.

Now it's a superpower.

Now it's, it's almost this feeling
that you're obligated to lean into it.

And we know that that's
just not sustainable.

You cannot be operating on that
level without falling into these

three other cycles and phases.

I think hyper focus typically
is in one sort of aspect.

You might be hyper focusing on a creative
project or at work, but you've got family

members, you've got friends, you've got.

You know, medical needs, nutrition needs,
other things that are occurring in your

life that you are just probably not
looking at, and it's not on your radar.

With ADHD, it's, we know it's
not happening in one sphere.

It's touching all of these spheres.

And you do really kind of lean
into one invariably it's, it's

gonna lead to other challenges.

Economically in the impacts and
the ability to, to sustain jobs.

And maybe that's not just
because of productivity at work.

Maybe it's because your home life balance
is an absolute disaster because you can't

find a way to sit here and spread yourself
appropriately in a sustainable way.

Um, I think it all kind of
fuels that and leads into it.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: Hyper focus, you know.

What are the modes that we are in
when we're in, when we have ADHD?

So hyperfocus, I would view as we're
stimulated and we're excited about what

we're engaging with, but stimulation
in this sort of hyperfocus when wielded

in the right way can be very useful.

Almost like we're in this
activated state and when we're in

this activated state, there are
certain, perils that come with it.

For instance, it's stopping, you
know, I fell into it yesterday and

just now before this, uh, podcast.

So before this podcast, James and I
was running around time blilndness

and I'm like, oh, I gotta set up
my light and all this other stuff.

Sure enough.

But here we are, it's a
trap and we'll fall into it.

So I think it's like A: identifying when
are you likely to fall into the trap?

So maybe, James, do you have any
personal experiences or, or clinical

where, like what, what are the traps?

When do people actually fall into it?

Boots on the ground,

James Kennedy, PMHNP: sure.

I mean, lived experience wise, I'm,
I'm kind of keen to talk about that.

I mean, for me.

It happened as recently as last night.

I was working on some new coding
and some new applications,

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: Ah, coding.

James Kennedy, PMHNP: Again, the
timeline is, it's, it's, you know,

something I'm, I'm very passionate about.

It's something that.

operation-wise for my business is
gonna be very helpful for my employees

and, really making their time much
more valuable and automating some

processes that they struggle with.

And you get that excitement and then
you get that intellectual stimulation

and then the excitement knowing
the downstream benefits of it, and

then all of a sudden it's midnight.

Um, and what am I doing?

You know, wife's been asleep
for two hours, I gotta get

up at, you know, six o'clock.

I got an early day start.

And I think that those types of examples.

Are pretty common and resonate with
a lot of people and you know, that's

not necessarily an extreme case, but
you know, six hours of sleep is not

where you necessarily wanna be at.

And I think kind of seeing those
little, those little cuts into sleep

and, and other sorts of foundational
pillars of good mental health and

wellness, that's where it really
starts kind of chipping away at that.

/ Jon Murphy, PMHNP: Remember, let's
bring it back to ADHD of superpower.

Let's use that for a minute.

just don't wanna, these are the,
these are the single buildings we

have to leap or whatever, you know,
we don't wanna fall into the trap.

So, you know the, when I
hear intellectually engaging,

also there's creation, right?

Like right now we're creating.

Creativity in ADHD 2.0

was seen as one of those stimulation
sources, which was one of the first times

when I really felt like, wow, okay, now it
clicks because I know that that's my fuel.

So, but the thing of it is there's
different ways to be creative.

There's different ways to be engaged
with something that you're losing

time in and you're connected to.

But this one is very cerebral.

You know, I think of something where
you're squinting and you're, you're at

the library and you're thinking, thinking.

So that mode is like kind of
the hardcore learning mode.

And I would say for me, if I was
to look back at grad school, man,

it could have been so much easier.

Could have been, this is the
"why" at all, because it's easier.

So our brain can only reasonably absorb
so much information and learn like

this sort of information, facts-based
crunching stuff or, you know, skills

that we're just like getting better at.

We can only take in so much a day.

So to, we're, we're sort of
taking that energy that we have.

The mental energy, if you look
at a pie chart where we have this

much mental energy or directing
the energy in certain areas, well.

The brainiac stuff is only
gonna be part of that.

And if we try to run that off
the rails, we're missing out on

athleticism, we're missing out on,
um, sort of a creative expression

that is free from the the thinking.

James Kennedy, PMHNP: I think that
that's a great, great way to look at it.

And I oftentimes speak to
my patients about bandwidth.

Um, there's only so much that we have.

I think yes, things can be very
intellectually stimulating and

wonderful in these different arenas,
but I think where a lot of people

with a ADHD have challenges is that
you're with a partner that doesn't

Really understand that.

Some people are just more in that
inattentive, some people are just more

that combined and they've just gotta
go, go, go and there are different

things that are affecting your life
and, and I think it's not all, you

know, cast with one broad brush.

Um, but I what really kind of falls
by the wayside, especially when people

have jobs where they are intellectually
stimulated, that they've got autonomy,

they've got a period of, you know,
creativity they can tap into.

You know, and not to say it's not good
to be great at your job and to sit

there and create amazing things, but
it, you know, it's not everything.

I mean, at least not to me.

I mean,

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: Work is not everything.

James Kennedy, PMHNP: I mean, it,
it really, it shouldn't be, and

if you make that case, you, you're
just challenging those relationships

and stressing 'em even further.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: For sure.

Well, so when we have this balance,
like, okay, work is gonna take us this

far with the coding, and then you have
this thing you're doing with your kids,

whatever you're, you're playing baseball
or what have you, you then you're

tapping into another stimulation source.

So we're giving our brain another
opportunity to be stimulated.

And this is the type of
stimulation that isn't cheap.

It's something that's gonna carry
us through the days and that.

So we're never gonna
look like other people.

I think our brain's gonna be on or off.

But if we're the, there's a way to
sort of approach this more stimulated

state and look for what we talked
about, this idea of sustained

hyperfocus where we can switch from
one thing to the other different

stimulation sources with less burnout.

But since the ADHD trap consists of.

Burnout.

Uh, oh, you know what that means?

Here it comes.

I'm gonna put some sound effect
there, some screeching tires.

Um, but yeah, , I think it's fun
to talk about the things we enjoy.

Let's talk about burnout.

What's the difference between,
oh, man, I spent a lot of time

doing that versus I'm burnt out.

James Kennedy, PMHNP: I think it depends.

I mean, I, not to say that
you can't string a couple

activities together that are.

know, over that kind of
bandwidth allocation.

As long as I'm sitting here and
balancing it out in other arenas, and

I think you made it such a great point.

It's like, yes, like we're looking
for stimulation, but stimulation can

come from those relationships and.

Oh my, I mean, I tap into it all the time.

I've got, you know, a daughter that
plays five different sports and

it's, it's amazing being there,
getting to be engaged in it.

I think just understanding like
that is just kind of the framework,

a little bit of how our brain
works and leaning into that rather

than trying to set up, you know,
structures that, that just don't fit.

fact that this is a stimulation disorder
and if you frame it the right way, you

should be able to kind of typically
accomplish your goals across the board.

Not just occupationally, but
socially, academically, and otherwise.

It takes a lot of practice and I
think it takes a lot of intentionality

and I think it takes a lot of
just your phone down, just being

present in those, in those moments.

You know, trying to find a way
to just that time where you do

need to be on your phone and on
your computer that that's okay.

Lean into it then, but then.

Really kind of diverging away
from that at at the next activity

and just being present and,

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: Well, that's so
the hype to go back to hyperfocus

since you brought up phones, which
is a whole different topic, uh, to

say it, to put it lightly, but if
there's, if, what are the, the dangers

of hyperfocus when it's misdirected?

I mean, I think that's one of the
greatest things, especially creating,

I'm making things or
posting things online.

I want everyone know to know
if you see anything that I post

online, I am not scrolling.

And if I'm scrolling, it is to get an
understanding of like what to create and

I try to get outta that trap right away.

'cause it is a, it is a, for
me personally, it's a demon.

But when we're talking about, um, I.

Uh, just different spheres of life,
different, different domains of living.

We can't possibly have every
type of stimulation available

to us present in our mind.

We're probably gonna have the
thing we're excited about.

So, and then we can start to have
this ping pong where, okay, like.

There it is good to have this balance.

I got my social life, I got my work life.

I would say that, um, we're gonna
prioritize some over the others, you know.

So I think for me, socialization
is actually the thing I

don't prioritize so much.

I prioritize work.

I prioritize fitness and and
stuff like that and creativity.

But I'm kind of a shut in.

So when I do go out, like when
James and I get together for our

you know, Team huddles, compass
Point Institute, huddles, you know,

the official meetings that we have.

That is something that's great
for me because I feel so renewed

and restored and inspired.

But if I was doing that every night,
I would probably feel burnt out.

James Kennedy, PMHNP:
that's a really good point.

I think this is unique for everybody.

I mean, some people just have more of a
tendency to be extroverted or introverted

or to be drawn to different interests
and such, and I think a little bit

of self-assessment and figuring out.

know, what are the things that kind
of bring you joy, bring you that

periods of, of adequate simulation?

That's not necessarily putting into too
much hyperfocus or too much burnout or,

or stress, but I think it's important
to kind of map that out for yourself.

'cause it looks different for everybody.

I mean, the time of the year also
can sit there and impact that.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: Nature.

Mm-hmm.

James Kennedy, PMHNP: for sure.

And obviously an important thing
to sit there and to tie into and to

be exposed to and really, you know,
look up at the sunset and, and enjoy.

But I mean, it's, we all
have our different lives.

They're, they're certainly
not all in the same bucket.

What is it that I wanna
sit here and get better at?

where are the deficiencies and,
and where are my strengths?

What kind of person, you know, a
little bit of self-authoring, like what

are you looking to be in five years?

You know, these are all important
questions and I think, you know, not

for nothing I think those questions
can be fielded pretty well with a

patient, with a patient with a DHD.

If you start hyper-focusing on,
on some self-authoring, it's

like, it can get unbelievable.

Like you can really flush
that out pretty well.

And then maybe you've got a little
bit of a roadmap and can kind of

figure out where to distribute your
bandwidth and, and, you know, keep

yourself in check and have a, a general
kind of way to just go about things.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: Yeah.

No, it, it totally does.

I, I love that.

And I think we'll probably jump
into some of that in the future if

we're considering boss mode, level
skills, if you know what I mean.

But, um, just to kind of wrap this thing
up, you know, I, I think it's about.

You know, the, the reality of it,
not only are we not all the same,

but ADHD, it's a creature comfort
individual pet peeve type thing.

What works for me might not work for you.

Those boring things that boring for you.

Like for me it's laundry, you know, it's
becoming other things, but you know,

that's a different story nonetheless.

We're never gonna be good at
doing things we don't like to do.

So I think there's that consideration.

There can be things that we do for
now, but these skills and these tools

adapt with us and they change with us.

And the guilt, right?

If we don't get it right, we
want to really give ourself that

leeway and be quick to say, it's
all right, because we're learning

even when we fall in the trap.

See, that's the thing.

We wanna avoid the trap, but if
we fall in, well, guess what?

. We're crawling out.

We know how to get out.

It's just a matter of learning from it.

And the more we do, the less likely we
will fall into the trap of, let's be real.

We'll fall here and there, or
maybe trip on the side of it.

James Kennedy, PMHNP:
No, I think that's great.

So let's leave with a
little final thought here.

So just a quick little kind of takeaway.

So, a ADHD Trap, it's not a life
sentence, it's a design problem.

I, I think we've talked about the
different ways that you can remodel,

redesign things, and, and kind
of find a way to troubleshoot it.

Um, I think once you stop working
against your brain and that friction

and start designing systems and, ways
to go about your life that leverage your

strengths, and also I think you talked
about laundry, like if there's a service

that you can incorporate if you're have
the means outsourcing those sorts of

things can be really empowering and,
and really provide more bandwidth to,

to do the things that you want to do.

But I think once you really redesign and
remodel those things, after a little bit

of self-discovery, everything changes.

It really does, and it's just, you
know, continued positive momentum.

Things can change and they can change
pretty radically and produce sustainably.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: Yeah, and I think
that people with ADHD, without medicine,

were either gonna be in a similar place.

With medication, but it just looks
a lot different without, so life is

either flying by the seat of your
pants, getting by, or maybe it's at

a standstill and it feels like you're
not able to get moving on things.

So we're still gonna fall into
that pattern, but we're gonna be,

have an ability to sort of direct
things we're able to point the

compass where we want it to go.

I would remind us not to
forget to point the compass.

We've talked about all these other areas.

Sometimes you gotta point the compass
right here and say, what am I holding?

What do I feel right now?

You know, sometimes we just need to rest.

And that guilt that comes with this
stuff, if we do feel the shame, it's okay.

It's, there's no shame in the game.

We just have to give it a name, right?

And then we can point the
compass in the way we want.

This has been a great episode.

I look forward to
talking to you next time.

What do you think we're gonna
get into next time, James?

James Kennedy, PMHNP: kind of
on the ADHD train, so I think

we've got a couple ideas.

On this subject, I think we're really
kind of starting to, to get some

deeper level understandings, and I
think a lot of, a lot of value could

be hopefully imparted and kind of
projected out to the world from it.

I'm in that zone, but hey,
I, I'm open to anything.

I think we've got an abundance of
topics and you know, if we switch

gears, we should switch gears and
we could circle back at some point.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, the ADHD train, it's like,
it sounds, it's, the image is

potentially dangerous, you know,
erratic, but maybe a lot of fun,

you know, I'd wanna, it's gonna,

James Kennedy, PMHNP: the tracks
ahead are, are, are well fortified.

You never know.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP: yeah, I'll
meet you at the in the dining car.

Until next time.

This has been Compass Point Institute.

I'm Jon Murphy.

James Kennedy, PMHNP: I'm
James Kennedy and we'll see you

next time.