The Secret Every Perfectionist Needs to Hear

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: All right.

We are back in the
Compass Point Institute.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
How's your day going?

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: It's good.

You know this, the comings and goings
of, uh, working professional, I suppose.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: Indeed.

Well, great to be back.

I'm James Kennedy, nurse practitioner

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Jon Murphy,
psychiatric nurse practitioner.

Good to be here.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: So
today we're diving to something that

might hit a little bit uncomfortably
close to home, especially with

individuals that have ADHD.

We're talking about that dance
of hyper focus and perfectionism,

but not the humble brag kind that
you mentioned in job interviews.

So I'm talking about that type that
steals your life just one excellent

hour at a time, whether it's the
hyperfocus holes that you find yourself

in or just the downstream effects.

That's kind of what
we're focusing on today.

I think also looking back for some
individuals perfectionist tendencies

might have been a survival strategy
that helped them in earlier years,

age 8, 10, 12, to kind of help sit
there and, reduce impairment related

to executive functioning challenges.

But is now, you know, at the age
of 40, holding you hostage and just

joining you one hour at a time.

Any kind of thoughts on that Jon?

or.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

I mean, I think that speaks true to
me and my experience, I know we were

talking recently about reinforcement
and I found in my journey of life

that I was reinforced into patterns.

I think, What's the drive?

You know, what's fueling the drive?

And that's a really mysterious thing,
especially again, I think you say 40.

Well, for me I was probably like
38, so not much closer and I think

there's only reasonably so much
time that we have as an adult.

You know, I've talked to people in
their twenties and I'm always happy

for them, but it's gonna be hard to see
outside yourself through the passage

of time to really look back and say,
Hey, wait a minute, what was going on?

But with perfectionism.

The interesting thing from my point of
view is, we talked about hyperfocus.

I was ironically editing the videos
that are on the YouTube channel

now and I was in hyperfocus.

I was editing videos about hyperfocus
while in hyperfocus, imagine my surprise.

And I realized in that it's
like what is driving us?

And at the end of the day, I was
like wanting something at the

end of it all, but that something
actually was in spite of the world.

And really that's how my
creativity and perfectionism works.

It's, it's like this personal sense
of satisfaction that I will actually

sabotage myself in order to get it.

But you're talking about something
a little different, right?

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: I
mean, I think you raised a good point.

I think everybody's experiences
are unique, and it just kind

of manifests in different ways.

We know the data supports that
about 30% or so people with ADHD

develop OCD, like behaviors.

To clarify, not OCD, but behaviors
that are, in that sort of more

compulsive obsessive bucket.

There are a fair amount of individuals
that have OCPD and ADHD and

those are the more extreme cases.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Mm-hmm.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: studies
have shown us that if you have ADHD,

your first degree relatives are
significantly more likely to have OCD.

There's definitely a dance between
the two of them, there's a shared

genetic architecture that I think
we can all sit there and agree upon.

You know, dopamine regulation
and dysregulation that really

kind of just impart this dance
that we're talking about.

For individuals that really have
more of those challenges with those

OCPD like behaviors, that's when that
perfectionism, I think what you're

kind of talking about gets to a point
where it is really pathological.

We've talked about the trap of
hyperfocus before and kind of

the resulting cycles about that.

You know, just picture like a child,
like eight, 10 years old or so, losing

everything, forgetting everything.

They can't sit still but then they kind
of discovered like, hey, if I'm looking

at my backpack 47 different times, if I'm
creating these lists and these structures,

oh wait, teacher's not yelling at me.

My parents aren't getting mad at me.

Oh, I'm, I'm doing a little bit better
in school and for some people I think

that drives those perfectionistic
tendencies even further because

they're a way to mitigate those ADHD
related executive functioning symptoms.

You know, it's, it's not necessarily
a better situation, it's just

swapping one issue out for another.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Mm-hmm.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: For those
individuals and for a lot of other, you

know, maybe not as extreme cases, that
perfectionism becomes a survival strategy.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.

Yeah.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: thing to
kind of look at really holistically here.

In some ways those individuals are
able to do better in school and I mean,

academically grade wise, not necessarily
holistically big picture because that's

not a sustainable way to live your life.

But on paper, you know, you
might see high academic success.

Maybe that's also fueled by pressure from
parents or other things that are going on.

But when you kind of see that play out
for, you know, another decade, another

decade that perfectionism become a prison.

You're just trapped into that
cycle and it's a really challenging

and dark place to be thrust in.

Your perfectionism isn't
necessarily character strength,

it's your ADHD brain's Armor.

The biggest issue is the amount of time
that they spend on these different tasks.

And if you are that type of person that
has those perfectionist tendencies.

You're spending 10 hours on different
things that just could have taken an hour

or so and had you have just spent an hour
and maybe got 85, 90% as good of output,

you'd have all that extra time to spend,
on wellness, on family, on other things.

Especially when, individuals get older,
there are large gaps in their life

because they're still dedicating all
these time to tasks that should honestly

take way, way less than they are,
and then you've got family stressors,

you've got other things coming in it,
and they just don't have the ability to

kind of switch to that and, you know,
devote and allocate appropriate time.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: You know, with
ADHD, when you're treating it as well

as living with it, whatever, it's
like your brain's now reliably online.

So what does that mean?

That's the interesting
thing, person to person.

Okay, now what, what have we been through?

What are we going through?

You know, and all these patterns, when we
think of survival, we're thinking about

a period of time in our lives where if we
did something that affected us externally,

meaning it made us able to be reliant
upon people or situations or groups,

if we were able to be dependent because
of something that we did, that's a win.

So we're gonna do what works and at a
period of time in our lives, childhood

or adolescence anytime before adulthood.

That's the win, but it's jarring when
we go from doing things one way to

now we're an adult and we're really
gonna do best to say what am I feeling?

How do I go about in the world
based upon what we're experiencing?

If we're reacting and responding to outta
control situations and circumstances,

how are we gonna know what we're feeling?

So this is the stuff we have to
work through and, ADHD treatment

it can be one of the many things
that breaks down the walls.

But nonetheless, um, it's finding
a different operating system we've

outgrown the old way of doing things.

So how do we find the
new way of doing things?

And you know, just to be real,
James being real brave right now.

You're working through it.

I can tell, and I know this 'cause
I've worked through too, of his mental

health clinicians listening to this.

I saw a post on LinkedIn the other day.

Right now there's a lot of people that
are struggling, but there's a lot of

people that want to help, like James
and I and other therapists out there,

if you're listening, other clinicians.

Sometimes people can really forget that
we're people too, you know, and we have

our own sort of stuff to work through.

But the good news is if we are able
to do that, we're gonna be so much

better at helping other people.

'cause we've walked the walk.

Am I right?

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
I completely agree on that.

I think that's an important part
to really look at the day-to-day

with these patients, let's
break down what's happening.

You're doing a patient,
note, How long did it take?

Oh, it took you two hours.

Should it take you 20 minutes?

Oh, breakfast preparation for your family.

It had to be something elaborate.

Oh, you spent 45 minutes on that.

Could have probably done it in 10.

An email response it's just
a low level, simple email,

you spend 30 minutes
on it instead of five.

And looking at that, kind of extrapolating
that over the week, it's like, wow, that's

nine hours over the course of a week.

Is that how you want your
children to remember you?

Not to say that you don't
wanna strive for excellence.

I think it is good to sit
there and, strive for it.

But what is driving that process for it?

I think trying to take a step back
and coldly looking at it, okay, so

excellence should kind of energize you.

Celebrate B+ plus work,

fear is gonna demand an A+ or death.

There is no middle ground.

There isn't good enough is good enough.

They're not able to sit there and get
to that point where, where they can

reconcile that, if that makes any sense.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: I've realized
myself we're gonna, my best vantage point,

learning to deal with my toxic mother,
working toward healing trauma that I've

been through and working with my patients.

This is coming after several years of
feeling like my life was changed because

I had gotten my ADHD on track and I
thought, I'm gonna change the world.

And it turns out no one really cared.

It was boring.

And I realized, you know,
we're much more than that.

It's what's the resistance?

And I realized these
tools that I developed.

They had suited me in my particular
sort of tendencies and then working

with patients, getting over the trauma
realizing that my mother has narcissistic

personality disorder and going no contact.

That change in my life was so
dramatic that I said, wow, it

just gave me this huge vantage
point of looking at my patients.

Maybe other people are going through
some something similar reading about

internal family systems and then seeing
the exact opposite of my failed ADHD

sort of teaching attempt was everybody
was having breakthroughs and I was

only informed by my path, which is not.

If I do something and it's like
high caliber, let's say there's

a standard of excellence.

Now I, it is the environment, the group
environment, the family environment, what

have you, is now a safer place to live.

And I was thinking about this idea, so
it's like group dynamic stabilization.

We have a will to live, we're
gonna act out of that will.

We're gonna do things that are
repeatable and predictable, these

behaviors, and if they have an outcome
outside of us that affect other people,

that's really, really a good thing.

So ultimately, I think that's what the
cool part about this stuff as an adult

now, is that when we peel back and look
at ourselves and be real about what

we're holding and what our emotions
are telling us, then we can say, okay,

there's a different way of doing things.

That's the part that takes a minute.

We have to unpack that, and no
one has the same sort of rate,

but, on the other side of it is
the person that we knew all along.

So, you know, perfectionistic can give
out some really good quality stuff.

You know, this is gonna still
have a, have a eye for quality

and , greatness and, and so forth.

The interesting thing about my path
was if there was this standard, it

was like, you know, crickets, you
know, chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp.

So I learned to just
kind of focus on myself.

I realized.

You know, no one really cares.

So, but then in that is another
thing for perfectionism, I didn't

realize in my sort of solitude and
in my sort of creative endeavors,

there was this sort of sadness there.

Being able to sit with that and
name it to me is something that with

medication, ADHD medication, that can
be the tipping point where maybe the

brain's online more, but not always.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: I
think that's a really powerful,

powerful part to put in here.

Talking about being on a good
medication regimen, it's like,

I think that allows you to have
less armor walking through life.

Like you are able to kinda be a
little bit more vulnerable and I think

able to, you know, get to a point
where, okay, you know, B+ work that

I finished today is better than A+
work that doesn't get finished ever.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Those
are the hurdles, the real

life hurdles in the moment.

That we face.

When are we gonna be challenged?

So I think of two planes.

There's two planes.

One is in isolation by ourselves, and one
is around other people because especially

if there's a group dynamic reinforcement
or survival strategy, we have this

sixth sense of reading the room as long
as we're not on the autism spectrum.

But that aside, we're gonna have
this, this intuition in terms of

social reciprocity that is so natural.

It's, you know, you could argue it's
just instantaneous and electromagnetic

and whatever else you wanna say because
if you look on EEGs of people, when they

get in a group, we get more lizard brain.

You know, we're, we're social creatures,
so we're gonna be operating out of

a place of automatic instantaneous
interactions, bouncing off each other.

And if your medication's not on
board, then you have no frontal lobe.

So with the frontal lobe, we
might have just a little bit

more ability to just stop and sit
and say, what's going on here?

Instead of just flying into action.

And it could be that, wait a minute,
I feel really, really stressed out.

So many people say, I just started my
medication, but I'm really stressed out.

It's like, well, what did you do before?

It's like, oh, I punched
a hole in the wall.

I threw something across the room.

That's the bottom line is
it starts and it ends there.

This is what I feel, the end, that's
it and all emotions are normal.

So if we can say, this is the
emotion, it is normal, and that is it.

But the emotional center, if we can
start there and say, this is what I feel,

I think that's a powerful first step.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: well said.

I completely agree with that.

And I think again, too, I liked
hearing, just like putting the brakes

on things , and sitting with that
discomfort and the anxiety and the stress

and then, you know, reflecting on it.

Where's that coming from,
why am I feeling that?

How do you peel that dance of trauma
and ADHD and all of the other things

that are co-occurring and I think that
that is, like you said, a great first

step to really to begin that process.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.

Well, the one thing is I think when
we identify where we are or like we're

in this place, okay, we're triggered.

Another way of putting it is our
inner child is jumping out at us.

It could be a version or a
mode of ourselves, we could

call what we want to call it.

But when we, identify it, then we
might be able to say, okay, now what?

Especially if we've done the
work when we're not triggered.

What I would say is in regards to
perfectionism, and you mentioned

OCD, I'm really glad you did.

The way I conceptualize
obsessive compulsive disorder

is very much cognitive.

So something our mind does in response to
the nervous system is think you ever seen

MacGyver or Walter White in Breaking Bad?

He got that survival mode in
and bang, it was great, right?

So that's him using his
mind under pressure.

But the problem is, is that our mind is
racing because we're not calm in the way

we used to be there's now a better way
of doing things and our body knows it.

So.

If we realize and identify we're
triggered, we might be able to say.

Not the time to think.

'cause if we are thinking then
we're not thinking clearly.

So this is why we say come to your senses
because you're not thinking clearly.

It's 'cause our nervous
system is focused on survival.

So we have a limited
view, it's right here.

And we can't see outside of ourselves.

I think it was like 2014, my
wife and I were coming back from

Florida and a panic attack on the
airplane just totally lost my mind.

And, uh.

After it was over, it was really
during takeoff, it leveled out and it

was all gone and just shame came in.

But it's just amazing how like
our emotions or how we experience

them can can shift and change
but if we can catch ourselves and

do something different and say

not the time right now or, what am
I holding is a good one, you know?

And having those strategies
let me go in the other room.

Let me write something down.

But there are times when it won't work.

Our mind just wants to stay on.

Especially if you have that hyper
focus and you have solved problems.

There's a problem that we may have
actually solved in our mind as a child

that, problem that was unsolvable,
we may have solved in our mind.

If you can think about that.

So.

When we're coming from that perspective,
it's like, why doesn't it work?

I've talked to patients and usually
in technical jobs, they're like,

I need to solve this problem.

You know, the thinking,
thinking, thinking.

If we're never able to draw
attention to what do I feel,

oh, I feel my feet on the floor.

I breathe in and out, you know,
activate the peripheral nervous system.

If we're not able to do that,
the mind just gonna keep going.

'cause the solution is
not outside of ourselves.

So on we go and on we go and on we go.

And that's what I'd say is this
pathological manifestation or sort

of pathophysiology as it gets worse
psychopathology I suppose would be the

right term, that's kind of the way I
view OCD, being informed by this work.

You know, working with folks,
whether it's autism or people that

just cannot turn their mind off.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: No,
it get, that gets me thinking too.

I kind of came up with this little
phrase and I was thinking more externally

and about systems, but I think hearing
your thoughts on internally all of

this, I think it's a great phrase that
kind of catches all of it and present

beats perfect every single time.

So I think that that works both

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Oh yeah.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: about,
know, being with people that you

care about and being present, and not
just on these tasks of A+ necessity.

But I think you're right too.

I think being internally present for
yourself is extraordinarily powerful and

I think did a great job summing that up.

And I think it's important,
you know, just be present.

You don't have to be perfect.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: As a
growing person, you're relying

on things outside of yourself.

So you're constantly looking for ways
to continue to feel calm, provided that,

there's something that is preventing
us from feeling naturally calm.

And that's the reality, is that
we're never gonna go back to our

former selves and say, you're
all fixed and be able to do that.

But what we're able to do is within
ourselves, realize what we didn't get.

There's a really ironic duality here,
so it's like this acceptance piece

and understanding we have survived,

so therefore, as we walk in to the
office meeting or walk into the party

where you don't know people and you
feel uncomfortable, we might have

different ways of doing things in the
past, but it's not until we walk in

and we experience it and we get that
feedback that we understand how we feel.

So that's tricky when it comes to , what
are our old patterns and old ways.

As we get that compass centered.

You know, you sit the compass right here
and you allow it to sort of point you in

the direction and what's the direction it
starts with how you feel, and then from

there we have to learn how to navigate
the world based upon that but it's taking

stock of what we're bringing to the party.

Because if we do care about other
people, then we wanna make sure

that we can do the best job.

We wanna make sure we can
live up to these promises.

Does that make sense?

Hit the

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
nail on the head.

And I think that kind of leads me
to my final concluding thought.

I think we've done a really
good job, kind of in summation

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: A+!

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: A+ will
be kind of integrated in that so I think

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC:
Oh, oh, let's say B+.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
Well, they'll both be part of this.

So I think just hearing this, like
the bravest thing that an ADHD adult

can do, and especially a person
that might be more, subject to those

perfectionistic traits and such, so
accepting the B+ work in one hour

is gonna be far more ideal than A++
work that you've spent 10 hours on.

while that perfectionism might've
saved you in third grade, eighth

grade, maybe even in college, it's
robbing your child, effectively just

sabotaging your ability to be present.

I think it's important.

It's time to retire your armor,
your 8-year-old self is safe now

and those strategies that were
important then to kind of mitigate

it are actually, hang them up.

I think there's, there's, there's
other ways that, that they're go about

things at this juncture that gonna let
you find that presence and find that

balance in life and sustainability.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: I wonder if
there's other mental health clinicians

out there listening right now.

I'd love to hear from you.

Compass Point Institute, YouTube channel.

Gonna work on the call to action.

But nonetheless, , if we had to survive in
this way, I think there's an interesting

duality where a lot of us with these
perfectionistic tendencies or childhood

trauma wounds, although it can be

really detrimental and it's not
to say that everyone is gonna be

able to be successful in life.

You know, survival is happening outside
of us and if we adapt and we learn and

we grow, and we only get one little
part of this puzzle, which is how do we

respond, what do we do automatically?

You know, how does our life unfold?

But for many of us, have a higher
degree, you know, I've known lawyers a

lot of my patients are higher academic
positions or maybe success, whatever

society tells us, "you should be happy".

And that's the really interesting irony.

All that glitters isn't gold.

But if we're able to heal, you
know, this survival, it can

actually do wonderful things.

And I think when we are able to reduce
the negative impact, then we can

see, oh, okay, all the cool things,
you know, it's like all the, all the

good things about our life story,
we wouldn't have it any other way.

I think that's a really like
interesting uniformity among everyone.

Once we heal, we're like, well, we
wouldn't want in any other way 'cause

we have a new sort of set of eyes on
what brought us here and the takeaway,

and I realize this, this is like
kind of the big one for me, which is

perfect, is the enemy of the good.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: Old
adage, that still holds as true as ever.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: For a certain point
in my life, probably early twenties, mind

you, my high school GPA was I think 1.5

or something.

I just pretty much barely graduated
and having like no direction and then

finally in my early twenties, finding
this field and really getting into that.

But there was this, for me, it wasn't
, oh, I need to be a perfectionist.

It was like, well, now at this
point there's nothing left to lose.

But in that, when are you gonna actually
say to yourself what achievement,

what milestone, what thing outside of
yourself is gonna say, oh, you did it.

You know, what is that all about?

Because sitting here at my desk,
at my private practice, having an

advanced degree, you know, that was
when it hit me like, uh oh, I don't

think it's gonna be this thing.

I don't think it's
gonna be this milestone.

I don't think it's gonna be this weekend.

I don't think it's gonna be this thing.

You know what I mean?

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: Yeah,

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.

It's here now.

Yeah.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
really great place to end it.

I think important, you know, once you
actually meet that milestone, if you're

not able to sit there, recognize and enjoy
and give yourself credit and grace for,

for getting there, that's an indicator
that you know, probably work to be done.

Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: This is
the Compass Point Institute.

Check us out on YouTube anywhere
you listen to podcasts, just

come along for the ride.

Thank you, and we'll see you next time.

James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
See you next time.